Talk:Dveck Builder deck

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Revision as of 19:59, 18 May 2022 by Bucky (talk | contribs) (→‎Combo Pirates crossover: Compass of Desire can now steal any Thing instead of just Pirate Treasure.)
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Preliminary talk

Is this deck supposed to be expanded upon? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 21:31, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

It sure is. Any thoughts on the current system? I'm having second thoughts. I want players buying cards more than just hoarding slabs and going for Victory points, so the incentive needs to be for buying actual Dvorak cards. Victory points therefore need to be hard to obtain just through materials. I could cut Slabs, or I might cut Gold entirely and move Victory Points into the main deck. Or do I even want Victory Points?--ChippyYYZ (talk) 23:27, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
How would you expect this deck to be expanded to include things and actions? Would this deck be an expansion of the IDD, or it a standalone thing? Here's an idea:
Red and Blue coins can be spent to buy their respective cards, Actions and things. Gold coins are used to further upgrade these things into another "power level", while also being used to buy more powerful cards to begin with. Scrap Victory points in Materials. "Power levels" describe how powerful a card is. By default, it's at 0 unless it can be bought with Gold coins. There's no real cap to a power level of a card, but if the card is discarded or destroyed, it loses all power levels (Unless it was bought using Gold coins) --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 00:10, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I don't think of this as an expansion of Infinite Dvorak, since the cards there don't have costs balanced to their usefulness. I am imagining the card designs will look very similar, and I will probably import a bunch of my own Infinite Dvorak cards, adjusted slightly to fit this game's mechanics. Cards with effects that scale with upgrading Power Levels sounds like it presents some design challenges, do you have any examples? I do like the idea of Gold as prestige currency for higher-tier cards though.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 01:06, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
If you're looking for cards that are already costed, try borrowing some Treasures from Combo Pirates -Bucky (talk) 22:04, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Golden Cannon
Cost: 3 Blue, 2 Gold
Action: Lose one power level on this Thing to destroy another Thing.
It has a shimmering shine to it.
Special Delivery
Cost: 1 Red
Gain 1 of each type of coin per material you have. +1 for each Power level this has.
Special Delivery for you!

--JakeTheWolfie (talk) 01:31, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

One element from Dominion that I'd like to preserve is that Victory cards aren't good. You need them to win in the end, but they're dead cards during actual play, thereby reigning in the "winning" player. Since currency is split into red and blue, I think it's fair to give gold some marginal use as a medium for currency exchange, and just maybe even as access to another tier of items (perhaps Gold-tier cards have a separate deck and shop), but Gold can't be strong enough during play that it becomes both an end and a means. It should weigh you down more than it moves you forward. Having cards you can dump gold into for better effects makes it too valuable.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 17:42, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
I overlooked the phrase "Scrap Victory points in Materials", so my previous comment is mostly invalid. This does however raise the question of how to win the game.
If we keep VP but remove it from gold, I see two options: (1) Leave it up to the main deck cards. This can lead to the Infinite Dvorak problem of having too many or too few (or zero) win conditions depending on what cards end up in the deck (like Infinite Dvorak, I expect the deck for any given game to contain only a subset of a large list of cards). Since the "Balancedness" of main deck cards is highly variable, it may not be as good a place to put VP as (2) in a rule that exists outside the cards, something like Dominion's Landmarks[1]. My current thought is "Whenever a player empties their deck, they gain 1 VP for every 5ish non-Material cards they have bought." This incentivizes buying cards, playing cards, and drawing cards (better known as "playing Dvorak") as much as possible, which is exactly what I want players to be doing in this game, while leaving open an important niche for Bars and Slabs as your hand fills up with too many actual cards to keep running on single shards (Materials have no per-turn limit so they cycle faster than real cards, emptying your deck faster so you can score).
(3) Replacing Victory Points hoarded for yourself with Damage inflicted on opponents is an option, if one that risks distancing the game somewhat from traditional Dvorak mechanics (and brings us closer to Star Realms than Dominion). Haven't thought much about this, not sure if it's ideal for 3+ players.
As for Gold as currency for higher-tier cards, I'm thinking the Prestige Deck can be a separate list from the main deck, and maybe cards that can earn VP have to be prestige cards. I also like the idea of the prestige deck being more carefully designed than the anything-goes main deck, perhaps constructed by selecting one or more "booster packs" of cards designed as a group (meaning they could break the "Cards should not refer to other cards" guideline). Not committed to this idea though.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 03:47, 10 January 2020 (UTC)
Golden Cannon
This enters play with 1 charge.
Spend 1 Gold: This gains a charge.
Action and spend 1 charge: Destroy another target Thing.
When this enters play, gain 1 Gold Coin.
Action and pay 1 Gold: Destroy another target Thing.
Special Delivery
You may spend any amount of Gold. Gain 1 Coin of each color for each Material you control, plus 1 for each Gold spent.
This card might be undercosted.

Rather than add Power Levels as another game mechanic, it can be approximated with either charge counters (counters are like Tokens that aren't Things) or just spending gold. Any thoughts on the design direction, or on how to color prestige cards?--ChippyYYZ (talk) 07:05, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

A Power level was intended to "upgrade" the card. For example, you could have a card that becomes a lot more powerful if upgraded 3 times. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 02:08, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
Would that be "While this Thing has 3 or more charges, you may...", or do you mean that it upgrades into a literal different card?--ChippyYYZ (talk) 04:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC)
"While this Thing has 3 or more charges, you may..." --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 20:57, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

When using actions that require some resource to be used, why not use the resource needed instead of "Action and pay X" --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 21:09, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Because if it doesn't say "Action" then it isn't recognizable as an action. If you just want a shorter way to say "Action and pay X:", you might want a way that doesn't leave out "Thing and pay X:" or "Action, Thing, and pay X:". Some sample abbreviations: "Act, 1 Blue:" for actions, "Th, 1 Gold:" for thing abilities, "Act+Th, 1 Red, 1 Blue:" for Action and Thing abilities, and finally "1 Blue:" for an ability that costs a blue coin but otherwise does not cost you one of your plays for the turn.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 01:26, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
The only reasonable it wouldn't be recognizable as an action is because we didn't re-define it that way. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 01:05, 15 January 2020 (UTC)
Okay, but what about the other three-fourths of what I said? Sure we could redefine it that way, but it's weirdly asymmetrical for action abilities to just say "1 Blue:" while Thing abilities have to spell out "Thing, 1 Blue:", and it also leaves no room for abilities that only cost coins. It's conciseness you're wanting, right? So surely you'd also want a shorter way to phrase Thing abilities and Action+Thing abilities, right? If we're going to shorten those, we may as well shorten Action abilities the same way. My suggested abbreviations would have every ability convey exactly all the necessary information concisely and without ambiguity.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 01:37, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Booster Packs

The rules require three booster pack cards in the shop at all times. But the booster packs themselves are small, 15 cards or less, and it's not just conceivable but fairly likely that the booster deck runs out. So there needs to be a rule for what to do - fill the slots from the main deck? There should also be an explicit convention for the size of the booster pack, so people don't e.g. try to play with a 4-card pack under construction.-Bucky (talk) 19:11, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

Combo Pirates crossover

Pirate King's Crown
Thing - Victory
When you play an Action or Thing or use an Ability, put a Combo counter on this Crown until the end of the turn.
When the Pirate King's Crown has 10 counters, trash it and gain 20 victory points.
Card by Bucky
Destroy target Boat OR target player discards a card at random.
Card by Bucky
Compass of Desire
Thing - Treasure
Action, 1 Red: Put a greed counter on an opponent's Thing.
Action: Steal a Thing with at least as many greed counters on it as its cost. Destroy Compass of Desire unless you pay 4 Coins.
Points to what you covet most
Card by Bucky
Magic Mirror
Once per turn, 1 Red: Pay the "Action:" or "Act:" part of another ability's cost, or allow its controller to use a Once Per Turn ability a second time this turn.
Card by Bucky
Coin Chest
At the start of your turn, put a Red or Blue Shard from the bank under the Coin Chest.

Destroy Coin Chest: Gain the coins for all the Materials that were under it, and return them to the supply piles.
Card by Bucky
Customs Frigate
Thing - Boat
You have +1 hand size
Your opponents' Action cards cost an additional Coin or token to play.
Bureaucracy. It's not the fees, it's the inconvenience.
Card by Bucky
Twisted Hourglass
Thing - Treasure
2 coins, Destroy this: Take an extra turn after this one, but you can't gain Coins during the extra turn.
Card by Bucky
Psychic Spyglass
Thing - Treasure
Once per turn, 0: Look at an opponent's hand.
For peering into thoughts from a distance
Card by Bucky
Altar of Greed
Thing - Treasure
1 coin: Discard any number of cards. Gain 2 Gold Coins each.
Riches, but at what cost?
Card by Bucky
Jade Galleon
Thing - Treasure Boat
You have +1 hand size.
Once per turn, 0: gain 3 Gold Coins.
Card by Bucky

Combo Pirates runs along fairly similar lines, playing out largely by buying from a shared shop, so mining it for concepts is a good idea. However, the scale of economy is very different, so most of the cards won't convert one-to-one. - Bucky

I never got around to playtesting this, so while I'm unsure of some cards' costs and of 50 VP as the finish line, I figure it's safe to unlock.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 16:45, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
The main thing that stands out compared to other deckbuilders is the almost total lack of non-money cards that cost more than the corresponding Slabs. There are no top end purchases for a big-money strategy, just a very small amount of non-rate-limited coin sinks like Fundrazor. This makes blue Slabs in particular a very niche purchase - if you can get slabs to afford an expensive Thing, you could just buy it directly.-Bucky (talk) 17:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

On The Cost Of Cards

The freeform nature of the main deck makes the lack of High End Cards a problem that would have to be solved at a level above the cards themselves. Similarly to how the Booster Deck allows for each game to be colored with a certain theme or mechanic without it getting drowned out by the rest of the deck, perhaps a High-End deck could kick in after a certain point in the game (a player buys a slab, somebody reaches X VP, a button is pressed, etc.) to make valuable cards available without clogging up the shop in the early game or being too scarce in the late game. The high-end deck could include all the cards with cost 6+, with the main deck being 5 and under.--ChippyYYZ (talk) 16:34, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Exotic Materials

I was excited to see this today. Nonbasic Materials are a nearly unexplored region of design space, and you suddenly discovered Materials with abilities, spending restrictions, and a new type of coin! (Ritual Riches, Blood Crystal, and Counterfeit Bar, respectively) One thing though, Gold Shard does Warping Shard's job at the same price without the operating cost.

Warping Shard is effectively a conversion machine (which is what I was almost going to name it). I kind of want a way to make it not a once per turn thing, such as tapping it like in magic, but that's where I landed. --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 22:41, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Basic Material Addition - Shard, Bar, and Slab. Each provides their respective amount of colorless coins. Bar would cost 2, Slab would be 4. Thoughts? --JakeTheWolfie (talk) 20:15, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

None (or nearly none) of the main deck cards have abilities that cost generic coins, so their usefulness is limited. I'm not even 100% sold on the distinction between Red and Blue coins. I would print out a deck and try playing it with some pals a few times before making further changes--ChippyYYZ (talk) 02:54, 17 May 2022 (UTC)